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Using a Makita 3-3/8" saw to re-groove teak seams?

 
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Fboykin



Joined: 29 Jul 2013
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:19 pm    Post subject: Using a Makita 3-3/8" saw to re-groove teak seams? Reply with quote

This is an old topic, but hopeful that my questions will get picked up. I'm about to tackle my deck (new to me 2000 GB 42 Classic). Numerous screws are exposed so I'm thinking the seams need deepening and just got a small Makita saw to do that. My questions concern the "shoe" that Bob Lowe has mention in other posts. (hoping he sees this).

How thick is the shoe - 1/4 inch plywood or lexan? (I have a custom plastics shop nearby so leaning towards lexan or acrylic). Does it make a difference as long as blade depth can be set?

Why the shoe in the first place? Is the purpose to provide a spot to mount the guide pin? One of Bob's posts says the shoe is the same size as the saw base.

The Makita is battery powered - light and appears easy to handle. I'm fairly skilled with tools (tho this will be my first "deck job") and I think I can do a decent job. Not all the deck needs re-sealing and there's enough wood - I just have a suspicion that some of the seams are not deep enough.

2nd set of questions deals with stacking blades in the Makita to cut the correct seam width. Folks mention adding blades and spacers. Can someone add some details for the best & safest way to do that? Add spacers in between the blades so the teeth don't touch each other when tightening up? Offset the blades so the teeth don't touch? How many teeth on the blade for the best cut?

Thanks for any and all tips and comments!

Any tips or techniques on using the Makita will be welcome!
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Berger
Alexia K
San Francisco
1977 GB 36-520

Joined: 21 Aug 2017
Posts: 22
San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to look at the Fein MuliMaster with blades specific to the job.
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Fboykin



Joined: 29 Jul 2013
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fein tool is excellent - already have one. Also have their blade that removes old caulk. But I think I'll also have to deepen the seams. The posts I've read say if bungs are missing (a number of mine are gone) and decks have been sanded (previous owner sanded), then it's likely the seams are now too shallow. Teak Decking Systems recommend a minimum of 1/4" seam - I have plenty of teak to cut a deeper seam.

There are a number of old posts on this site about using the Makita saw to cut deeper seams - I'm just trying to find out some more details of how to set it up plus any tips or tricks. Thanks.
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Berger
Alexia K
San Francisco
1977 GB 36-520

Joined: 21 Aug 2017
Posts: 22
San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got It! I didn't mean to sound like you didn't know what you are doing. I too have missing plugs but used the Fein and new plugs and it worked well.
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Fboykin



Joined: 29 Jul 2013
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha! I'm not sure I'm sounding like I know what I'm doing...and lots of times the tone doesn't come across in posts (or texts).

Just to be clear, though, are you saying you used your Fein to cut your seams deeper? From what I've found online, folks use the Fein to remove the old caulk with that caulk blade and sometimes a tile grout cutting blade to sand the leftover caulk bits out of the seams.

How are you using your Fein?
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Berger
Alexia K
San Francisco
1977 GB 36-520

Joined: 21 Aug 2017
Posts: 22
San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope! I felt the seams were deep enough but time will tell if they hold up.
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westiculo
Rose Mary
Boston, MA
42 Motoryacht - 1985

Joined: 13 Mar 2017
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used a standard 7-1/4 circular saw to regroove my entire deck. I think you could definitely do this with the saw you're talking about (aside from the concerns introduced below). At many of the edges and in the complex areas by the king board at the bow, I had to regroove by hand/use a router.

I'm not sure about the shoe you're talking about. I made a jig by screwing a thin, 4-foot long strip of wood in the middle of a 1-foot by 4-foot sheet of plywood. I then cut the edge of the plywood off using the thin strip as a rail, pushing the base of the circular saw against it as I cut. I then used this jig to cut all of the straight lines on the deck (described in more detail here with pictures: http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/making-straight-cuts-with-a-circular-saw/). I would first set the jig at the edge of the caulk line, kneel on the back of it (as opposed to clamping it as described in the link), and run the circular saw down the caulk line. For lines that were slightly curved (as in the bow of the 42-MY I have), the circular saw still worked perfectly, but I had to do it freehand. This was no problem, it just took a little bit more time.

It's good to wear a mask for this, because the black caulk dust sucks.
I stacked 3 blades on my circular saw to get the appropriate caulk line width. Blades of different make will have different kerf and slightly different diameter. You can try combing different ones, or bring a caliper to the hardware store. I would highly recommend widening the caulk lines slightly from what is currently there. This ensures that fresh wood will be exposed on both sides of the line. Too thin of a blade stack will leave a thin strip of old caulk attached to at least one side of the new groove - it sucks to have to go back and clean it out. Even with a wider groove, I think it took about the same amount of time for me to regroove as it did to clean out excess black reside (the TDS teak decking hook is amazing for this - buy one, and be ready to sharpen it repeatedly).

I did not use spacers between blades, simply stacked the blades - no problem. I tried many different blades to get the right width. In the end I used three different blades with a different number of teeth - didn't matter at all. Coarse and fine-tooth blades both did a clean job. I found that a groove width of .21-.22 inches worked well for my boat.

The only problem I can see using a battery-powered 3-3/4-inch saw is that spinning up three blades requires a significant amount of torque. Also, stacking three blades requires a spindle that is long enough to accommodate. My Milwaukee had a long enough spindle that three blades stacked still allowed me to thread on the nut with 4-5 threads engaged. You may find that a plug-in saw works better for you. You may also get straighter lines with a larger saw. The best bet is probably to use a larger saw for the open areas, then finish with the 3-3/4 for those areas the large saw can't reach.

To get nice grooves of even depth, it worked best to have a smooth, flat surface to set the circular saw/jig on prior to cutting. Unfortunately, on my deck, some of the old caulk lines were proud of the surface, and some were completely gone. I needed to use a sander to bring all of these lines down flush with the wood surface so I could get consistent groove depths. Many people say to never sand a teak deck, but most of these people would have simply replaced a deck in my condition. Some of my boards were very worn and to get the deck completely smooth I would have to sand a ton of wood off. Instead, I sanded a moderate amount, leaving the extremely worn boards as is. When caulking, this meant I only had to tape the really deep, worn areas so as not to fill damaged boards with caulk. This allowed me to minimize the amount of taping and get a nice-looking finished product without sanding off a huge amount of teak.

This method required two sanding steps. You will either need a belt sander, or to rent a floor sander. A first sanding pass was made to smooth the deck (and more importantly bring flush the proud caulk lines), and a second sanding step was used to remove the new caulk overflow. I pulled the tape off while the deck was still wet, prior to the second sanding step. The smoother, sanded deck sheds water much better than the worn deck. I believe this prevents teak wear because water doesn't sit on the deck, softening the boards.

I also have a different approach for plugging screw holes. Screws are completely unnecessary for a teak deck. They are very helpful for the initial installation, but it's the black adhesive that really holds the teak to the fiberglass. TDS no longer uses screws on many installations, and if you try to pull up your teak deck, even after removing the screws, you will find that it's nearly impossible because the adhesive is so tenacious. I found that my deck was most damaged near screw holes because this was where water was entering. For this reason, I simply removed all of the screws, and drilled holes of 3/8 diameter deep into the fiberglass sub-deck. Then, I filled these up with a syringe of epoxy to a level just above the bottom surface of the wood. This leaves a nice plug of epoxy bonding the wood to the fiberglass. Before this epoxy set, I dipped new teak plugs in epoxy and hammered them in. Without screws in there, the plugs go far deeper, the epoxy is much stronger, and I will never have to do this job again. Use an oscillating tool with a smooth blade to cut off the plugs. Use the plugs sold by jockscotsteve on eBay. They are far cheaper than that whitecap garbage, and they have a beautiful taper that is much easier to insert (I have no affiliation with any vendors mentioned here). Also, the guy combines shipping if you order multiple - a true gentleman.

Also, for those boards that are no longer adhered, you want to sneak some 3M 4000 underneath them. Don't use 4200 or 5200 because teak cleaning products can dissolve them. If you pull up the boards slightly, squirt some 4000 under there and temporarily use a screw with a washer in the groove to hold them down, you can get a nice firm deck again.

Finally, I used TDS SIS-440 to caulk, and Semco to finish the deck. I don't believe a deck as old and worn as mine (30 years without a refinish) can be allowed to continue to weather as badly. Some of my boards were down to 1/4-inch thick in places. I am also against oiling, but Semco gives a nice finish that doesn't look treated, yet allows the water to bead off better, reducing wear. I believe this deck should last 20 more years.

My order of operations was: remove screws, sand, regroove, re-seat boards where necessary with 4000, drill screw holes, fill with epoxy and plug, cut off plugs, clean and sand grooves, tape deep areas, acetone, caulk, remove tape while wet (the sooner the better), sand, wash, treat with semco.
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Rod Graff
RUBY TUESDAY
SAN FRANCISCO, CA
1970 Grand Banks 32-162
Supporting Member

Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 102
Santa Cruz, CA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have spent the last two summers re seaming the deck on our 32 woodie. The deck was In horrible shape, but the good thing with the woodies is the original teak is near 7/8” thick. I still have almost 3/4” of that left. The teak is nailed on the woodies, and even though my seams are still very deep, the nails were set very shallow and a lot of the nail heads are within 1/8” of the surface. Silicon bronze nails are extremely hard, and I have not attempted to drill out and replace any fasteners yet, as most of the bungs I have replaced seem to be holding. I ordered the new Festool Vecturo occilating tool, and used it with the Fien seam blade. I am not a big fan of the Fien blades. My groves had shrunk and expanded over the years, and are not all the same width. The fine blade can tear up a deck if you ar not extremely careful. I found a sharp razor knife to be faster. I also fabricated a lot of reefing tools and scrapers for removing caulk residue, from old files, etc. I also went thru a few of the TDS reefing hooks. I purchased a small bench grinder, as the tools need constsnant sharpening. I am still recovering from “Trigger Finger” on my right hand ring finger, caused by the constant gripping of the reefing hook. My finger locks up in the curled position, and is very painful. It is caused by inflammation of the tendon and it’s sheath. I still have a few more areas to finish, but the bulk of the boat is done. It will have to wait until spring as the relentless rains have started, and my finger needs to heal. For removing proud caulk from the teak decks I bent an offset in several extremely sharp chisels, and just push them along the seams. This will do a neat job of leveling the seams.
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Fboykin



Joined: 29 Jul 2013
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the two great comments. Really appreciate the detailed information!
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AndyH



Joined: 31 Jul 2017
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this youtube video on repairing teak decks quite helpful. This is the manual way so perhaps too much work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1rlGUF-940
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JP



Supporting Member

Joined: 01 May 1999
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ROD GRAFF:--- For the inexperienced and uninitiated like me, could you please explain further the "bent an offset on very sharp chisels" part for removing proud caulk? How was it "bent" and why not a normal chisel?
Thanks.
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Fboykin



Joined: 29 Jul 2013
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just did that w/ a couple of chisels. I placed them in a large shop vise and bent the handle over with a very heavy hammer. I tightened the blade in the vise and beat sideways on the handle tip until the shaft was at about a 45 degree angle. This lets you hold the handle with the blade flat against the deck so you can cut off the proud caulk.

However, it didn't work for me. They were new chisels so I knew the edges were sharp, but even tho they cut the caulk, it wasn't smooth. That could have been because my deck caulk is 17 years old.

I next tried a Fein mulitool w/a scraper blade and it worked like a champ. Took the caulk down level w/the deck and just barely took up any teak in some places. I have a lot of proud seams - got some extra blades for the Fein; looks like it will be my tool of choice!
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Bob Greenhaus
Summerhaus
New York, NY
Shopping for another GB
Supporting Member

Joined: 14 Dec 2003
Posts: 1078
New York, NY, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cut proud caulk using a one-sided razor blade. Bend it slightly to make it easier to hold on each side but don't try to bend it too much, they snap easily. Buy a box of them, they're inexpensive. I did the entire deck on a '36CL in a weekend. You'll end up with a garbage bag full of black rubber strings. If I were doing it again, I'd follow up with a quick/light sanding.

Proud seams prevent water and cleaners from draining and the decks from drying quickly. They make cleaning the decks more difficult. Walking on proud seems will tend to open up the seams.

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Bob Greenhaus
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